Hahaha, a new prescription for glasses might be in order. You were the one who posted the photo of the Jack Daniels bottle!Lol, I thought those were books, not alcohol.
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Exodus 22:16-17: "pre-marital sex" = the beginning of marriage?
- Thread starter DiscipleOfChrist
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Yes, but from close, not far.You were the one who posted the photo of the Jack Daniels bottle!
Technical.
But social life of young today is total s..t, but nobody drinks anything. Maybe this trade-off is stupid.
There is an instruction that firmly rejects that taking a virgin equals marriage.
What happens if a boyfriend takes a virgin, and it’s done in secret? Meaning the relationship ended, and the father never knew about it. Therefore, that boyfriend didn’t even pay the bride price for a virgin.
Let’s fast forward and that same girl is engaged to a righteous man. The man has permission from her father in marriage - she accepts - and the bride price is paid. But at the wedding night - he finds out she was never a virgin (no blood) - and she’s accused of being promiscuous in her father’s house.
The man is not guilty of adultery if that’s the case. This is proof of text there was no marriage with the first boyfriend that pumped, and dumped.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21
What happens if a boyfriend takes a virgin, and it’s done in secret? Meaning the relationship ended, and the father never knew about it. Therefore, that boyfriend didn’t even pay the bride price for a virgin.
Let’s fast forward and that same girl is engaged to a righteous man. The man has permission from her father in marriage - she accepts - and the bride price is paid. But at the wedding night - he finds out she was never a virgin (no blood) - and she’s accused of being promiscuous in her father’s house.
The man is not guilty of adultery if that’s the case. This is proof of text there was no marriage with the first boyfriend that pumped, and dumped.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21
And yet the girl is guilty…..
But what would the second man be guilty of anyway? He would be like Abimelech, having done something in the integrity of his heart.
She is guilty of circumventing the instructions of the Father, and being promiscuous in her father’s house. The instructions are clear - even if there is no marriage - the man must pay the bride price for taking a virgin - and if he can’t afford it; then he’s sold to slavery. The man that got away from paying the bride price will likely continue to fornicate. That’s why it must be reported, and dealt with.
The man that actually marry’s her bears zero guilt. There is no claim of adultery on his soul. He’s innocent. Which means taking a virgin doesn’t equal marriage.
So then what was the girl guilty of? The sex she had was meaningless. It didn’t bind her to anything. In your system she should still be free to remarry. All she needs is her father’s permission and a man willing to pay a bride price.
You can’t say that she’s guilty of disobeying her father because you can’t assume that the father actually forbid her to have sex. And of course there’s no command forbidding sex before marriage, so a Torah keeper would have a difficult time forbidding sex before marriage anyway.
I’m really confused by this whole idea. It seems very poorly reasoned out. Why is God killing girls over sins he didn’t define or even warn us against?
And I don't why people here so much insist on blindly following Old Testament law?
Are you under Old Covenant, so you study law to keep Old Covenant?
Maybe we should instead understand New Covenant?
And by the way, since Old Testament Law is tasked with keeping intact existing Israel tribes, will you keep them too? You know, about keeping land inside tribe?
Do you even know what is your tribe?
Are you under Old Covenant, so you study law to keep Old Covenant?
Maybe we should instead understand New Covenant?
And by the way, since Old Testament Law is tasked with keeping intact existing Israel tribes, will you keep them too? You know, about keeping land inside tribe?
Do you even know what is your tribe?
The word “law” my friend is a terrible translation. The actual word is “Instruction.” The entire book of proverbs is based on those “instructions/law.”
The Father in Heaven says that there is one law/instruction for the Israelite and gentile/foreigner that joins.
Abraham - who wasn’t a Jew or Israelite - we read was blessed because he kept the Father’s instructions/law.
The Messiah quoted and taught from the Father’s instructions/law. He prayed all future believers (John 17:17) would be sanctified by the “word of the Father,” which of course includes his “instructions/law.” He is literally the law/instruction made flesh, and we are supposed to eat his flesh. Those that reject his flesh (the word) have no life.
The apostles were teaching and quoting from the instructions/law.
In Isaiah 2 - we read that all of the earth will learn from the instructions/torah in the last days.
The Creator says why:
Duet 22:21
Because, she has done an outrageous thing in Israel by whoring in her father’s house. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
In the example above - her father didn’t know his daughter was whoring. Why? Because the husband paid the bride price for virgins. So it was something the daughter did in secret (she hid it away from her father).
There is zero room for whoring in the Father’s instructions. Even if the man purchases a slave - if he takes her - then she is upgraded to a wife. If he gives her to his son - she then becomes his daughter-in-law.
What about a boyfriend? If he takes her virginity - he must marry her. What if he doesn’t want to? She needs to report it to her father, so the man can be punished. It doesn’t mean she can’t ever marry. Of course she can - but the difference is the man marrying her knows she’s not a virgin - and there is no bride price to be paid. Versus the husband assuming she’s a virgin, and her father accepting the bride price. These instructions ensure whoring is not present. The punishment for secretly whoring in her father’s house is severe on the woman, and every woman is born with a hymen (so it can’t be hidden).
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Not all women experience pain or bleeding when they lose their virginity, first having sexual intercourse. Cheers
That’s especially true in the modern era, because women are more active in sports; and other outdoor activities. The instructions of the Father include a presumption of innocence. For example, if a wife gets raped in the country side. Only the rapist is killed for adultery, and the assumption is that the wife is the victim (it wasn’t consensual on her part).
Instruction is nonsense.
You don't instruct somebody by doing death sentence on them. They can't learn anything.
Do you even think why something is written? Or do you just demand it to be followed?
I would think the women living in early Israel would have been very physically active as it was a largely agrarian culture. Most tasks for the women were done by hand. Consider the lives of women like Ruth, or the woman spoken of in Proverbs 31(?). In the New Testament women such as Mary, in Romans 16:6, is mentioned as one who labored much for us. Those women worked hard and probably had very little time or energy for anything else.
It’s written to ensure peace and joy for the land and its inhabitants. The presumption is also that they knew these instructions, and chose rebellion.
Murderers are to be put to death.
Men that sleep with little boys are to be put to death.
Kidnappers are to be put to death.
Adulterers are to be put to death.
Those dishonoring mother and father are to be put to death.
Whoring daughters - that lie to their husbands about their virgin status - are to be put to death.
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These instructions were ignored. They were not built into modern western civilization. So what is the result my friend? Not only are men marrying whores that lie about their body count - but more often than not - those same woman end up divorcing them and taking everything they have. It’s happening everywhere.
Look at the kidnapping going on. It’s dangerous to leave your children anywhere. Even in the churches - because there is a chance the pastor or priest is a closet homosexual. This is happening because the Creator’s instructions were thrown under the bus. So there is no peace. Good luck finding a good wife. Why? There is no fear of the Creator in the land.
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Law isn't instruction. Law is law. For breaking law, it's lawful to use force against breaker.
We don't physically assault children where they calculate wrong during math class.
Don't confuse Hebrew language concepts with English language concepts. Claiming instruction == law is disingenuous at best.
And why are you so obsessed with virginity and woman's count?
If somebody has trouble finding good wife, it's you and your issues. I don't want to be public about this, but it's obvious to me you have them. To women these issues are shining as sun.
Good wife is trained. You are supposed to teach her, yet you expect finish product. How is woman supposed to know what pleases you? By mind reading?
When my father gave instructions, it was LAW in our family.
I don’t think that you get to diminish the Almighty’s instructions.
The word law is usually from the Hebrew word "Torah." Torah in Hebrew means instruction. Some english translations get it right by translating it to "Instruction" versus "law." For example:
Proverbs 3:1 (KJV)
My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments.
Proverbs 3:1 (Berean Bible)
My son, do not forget my instruction, and let your heart keep my commands.
The Hebrew word is "Torah." Torah means instruction:
The Messiah - who is the word of the Father made flesh - is the Torah made flesh. If people don't get sanctified by the Father's instructions - rejecting the flesh of Messiah - they have no life.
John 6:53
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Peter in verse 68 - "You have the words that give eternal life."
Revelation 19:13
He wore a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the Word of God.
When he met the adversary on the mountain - the Messiah quoted the Torah three times against the devil. He quoted the book of Deuteronomy. The Torah is a weapon against the devil. It prevents you from falling into his bondage. Why would any Christian celebrate it was nailed on the cross? I've heard it preached many times - "It’s too hard." Nonsense - the Father in Heaven says it's not too hard to keep his Torah.
Why are there so many Christian believers that say they love "Jesus", but hate the Torah? They are "Echad." Meaning Jesus is the word made flesh. You can't hate the instructions of the Father (His Torah), and love Jesus. It's a massive contradiction.
The woman's virginity goes back to the man - because the instruction is clear - the man that takes her virginity must marry her.
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You don't instruct someone by killing him. Literally, dead can't learn.
Are you admitting physical violence in your father's house? How do you think law is enforced?
Rulership based on violence doesn't make you popular among people, but hated. Lord must know this.