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Law, commands, or instructions?

Sarah, that's a great testimony. I'd like to highlight your emphasis on the leading of the Spirit to bring you where you are today. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Rom 8:14)

You might want to give some consideration to your implicit suggestion in the last bit that Torah-keepers are more highly evolved Christians. It's not just you, and it's not just Torah-keepers generally—the same suggestion is made by many non-Torah-keepers who see themselves as having transcended "mere" law-keeping (not my position, but it's out there). I wish we could all catch the spirit of Romans 14 and just leave plenty of room for each other to find our own way in the Lord as He leads.

Again, I think Zec captured the essence of a large block of NT teaching back in post #6, and I also believe Nathan has done a great job over the years of keeping the doors open to those of good faith on both sides who are willing to work together.
 
That 'vicar' just might be the guy in the mirror, too. Or someThing else.
As far as I'm concerned, that's just funny. You don't know me, and frankly, I'm not sure how much good you're doing your case at this point.

Like I said, Peace.
 
You might want to give some consideration to your implicit suggestion in the last bit that Torah-keepers are more highly evolved Christians.
That was not my intention. Sorry if it came across that way. I actually meant the opposite, in that no way is more evolved than the other, but we're all on our own journeys. Make sense?
Ok, just re-read it, and you're right it does come across that way. I did write it with children climbing all over me and had to take a break in the middle to change a nappy, is that a good enough excuse?
Next time I'll wait until Samuel gets home. :D
 
@andrew, at this point, what @Mark C is fundamentally saying is "everyone just needs to look back at scripture in the original languages and build their understanding from that". I don't think he is suggesting that you have not, only that this is the basis we need to come from, and the standard by which we must judge all things by. And that is something that we basically all agree upon to some degree (bar some differing opinions around the details at the edges). I think you're taking things personally that were never intended as such.

As I said earlier, at least when it comes to the key topics relating to marriage, we're working from the same rulebook, everyone just has slightly different reasons WHY they are accepting those passages. And whenever they express their reasons in a long post, there are enough words that somewhere in it there'll be something that someone could take personally, and Mark has a habit of using enough words to give plenty of latitude for that! Skim over those details, just read the fundamental intent of the post, and you'll find there's a lot more agreement than disagreement.
 
I actually meant the opposite, in that no way is more evolved than the other, but we're all on our own journeys. Make sense?
Makes perfect sense! It's a subtle difference, but that's a small way we can antagonize each other less, whenever possible.
 
Samuel, I respectfully disagree with your take on Mark's posts. I am content to leave the matter here (I've been content for awhile now...), and don't really see much profit in continuing to thrash what to me appears to be a very dead horse. Let the record stand, and readers can draw their own conclusions about what Mark has said and what I may or may not be reading into it.
 
That was not my intention. Sorry if it came across that way. I actually meant the opposite, in that no way is more evolved than the other, but we're all on our own journeys. Make sense?

All the way. I believe He leads us in a variety of different paths, that we may learn to have grace towards each other and not judge another man's servant.
 
Mark's point is that there was no change. There have always been clean and unclean animals right back to creation. Noah knew this. Moses later wrote it down. And there still are today, Christ didn't change it at all.

It's taken me a while to get to this although there's maybe not much to say. Till now I've been focusing on whether or not we are allowed to eat holy bread or work on holy days and I think I've made my opinions clear enough about that.

As far as eating unclean animals, weeeyellll... I mean... God showed Peter all those animals... and Peter called them unclean... and God said "Do not call unclean that God has made clean"

Which I fully understand to be primarily concerned with Gentiles now having been cleansed, for Jesus died for all men. I assume to Peter, (and I imagine, most Jews) preaching the Gospel to gentiles must have seemed like nonsense. Gentiles were by definition unclean, and Jesus had previously instructed them not to preach the kingdom to them, but only the lost sheep of Israel. Cuz... you know... Israel was represented as His sheep or even His chickens, both perfectly Torah safe. But I was represented somewhere on that sheet. Probably as some kind of reptile. I'm an unclean thing by the Law, but by virtue of what Jesus has done, no-one is allowed to call me unclean, for I have been cleansed.

Furthermore, I don't really hesitate to follow this chain of reasoning:

1) Since God relied on unclean animals to represent Gentiles when speaking to Peter, so much so that he used that picture instead of just showing him a bunch of clearly non-jewish people, and saying "Arise Peter, Preach and Baptize

2) That means God had most definitely always intended unclean animals to be the picture for gentiles, from the very beginning

3) But if God did not ACTUALLY cleanse the animals that were only ever a picture that represented me... which would be the ONLY possible interpretation if Cornelius hadn't been part of the picture

4) Well then, the picture doesn't really work at all. If my reptile counterpart hasn't been actually been cleansed for killing and eating, on what basis are gentiles cleared for converting? At the same time that God is relying on a picture, He automatically voids it. Why?

I'm sort of convinced that God is constant in these kinds of things. I mean, we know from Paul that God isn't really concerned about the well-being of the ox when He gave the command not to muzzle them while treading the grain, that His entire concern was for the servant of God getting to eat from the fruit of his labor.

And yet I daresay no-one here, if they ever happened to use oxen to tread grain, would muzzle that ox if they cared at all about the Torah. Even though God's entire concern was for the man of God, (and once again, we have scripture this is so) we would still respect the picture as it relates to the animal. And I think that would be wholly appropriate.

In the same vein, if He says he's cleansed the reptile that represents me on the golden sheet; I understand that all His concern is for me and that I am the whole point of this exercise, praise Jesus! But I have no qualms thinking He also cleansed the reptile too. "But the Torah says reptiles are unclean!" "It says I'm unclean too! If I married a Jew girl RIGHT NOW I might live long enough to see one of my grandchildren admitted into the assembly... but I myself have no hope of that. God handled me and reptiles at the same time, with Peter. Or on the cross, if you prefer. "

Why would I think that despite what God said to Peter, unclean animals have not been cleansed along with me? God's concern was only ever with me.

And even before He died on the cross, did He not say it was so in Mark 7?
 
@Slumberfreeze That was so well put. Thank you. Those comparisons have been floating around in my mostly empty cranium for a while now but hadn't been personalized.

From the Garden till now, its always been about hearing his voice. It has always been about the holy and unclean. I have utmost respect for anyone attempting to make that distinction in their lives, much like FH & FH2. As best I can tell from the story, they were attempting to follow revealed truth in spite of their preferences.
 
So keep in mind two things as you're reading what I'm about to say. The first is that I am very new to Torah observance and haven't been as diligent about studying it as I should. The second is that in our home we observe the dietary laws as we currently understand them but we eat what we're served in public. Okay, now onto the meat of this post. You can decide if it's clean or unclean yourself.

So there seems little way around the fact (to me) that the cleanliness laws were fulfilled. Christ said that it was what came out of man and not what went into him that made him unclean. Paul talked about it in his writings and we have God Himself weighing in on it actually telling Peter to kill the animals and eat them. We make a lot out of the spiritual meaning of that dream but we have to deal with literal meaning too. The two things are linked. If it was merely a parable He would have said so.

So how does this work? Well we know that Christ's sacrifice cleansed us of all unrighteousness. I don't understand the mechanism but it's clear that if I want scripture to be consistent and harmonized then I have to accept that the Kingdom of God is more than meat and drink.

HOWEVER, God's words do not pass away so while there may be no spiritual death associated with previously unclean foods, all of creation is merely an echo of God's Words. What He spoke still carries a blessing (or a curse). So I am convinced that these laws still have a place and a value. Conforming ourselves to God's Words will never be a bad thing. There will be a benefit. All things may be lawful but not all things are expedient.
 
"Science Discovers Pig DNA Closest to Human!"

This, they said in the story later, was why "every single pandemic in history has always come to humans via swine," because this DNA similarity means that viruses which infect pigs can easily "jump the species barrier" into man.

Am I to understand that you believe this? That every single pandemic in history has always come to humans via swine? If your answer is yes, how do you explain all the instances of pestilence and plague visited upon the Israelites in the wilderness as well as the other instances by an "angel". Does that mean that angels are actually among us incognito as pigs? Hmm. That would then seem to mean that the Israelites had to be traveling with pigs but God didnt want them to be killed & eaten because they were actually angels.

I am likewise perplexed about how Noah was supposed to understand the difference between clean and unclean animals, before the law was given... and before God had even told them they could eat meat. They had not entered into any covenant by which those were even relevant terms. And yet I expect that there were seven sheep, but only 2 pigs on the ark.

I think its worth noting that the unclean animals in the Noahic covenant were only restricted from sacrifice, not food.
Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Gen 9:1a And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, . . . . Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. (Context is immediately after the sacrifice of clean animals)

So, if it the statement that God doesnt change, ever, is true in the way that @Mark C has postulated, then the dietary restrictions in Torah were never intended (by God) to be used for food, just sacrifice.

So. . . . Did God change? If not, Did Moses get it wrong? If not, could it be that Torah was presented as a "chiydah" (Strongs 2420 Numbers 12:8). Its interesting that God speaks to Moses "apparently", (clearly) and everyone else in "chiydah". Even Aaron and Miriam.

Is what God said true? Always! Is how you interpret or understand what God said, truth? It depends entirely upon how you understand the "chiydah".
 
@ZecAustin Your post above is much the way I see it and have landed. "So I am convinced that these laws still have a place and value" is where the rubber meets the road. I totally agree that they have place and incredible value, I have just found that the incredible value is primarily in understanding the "chiydah", though obviously the moral and civil instructions are also crucial for life. It's the religious observance of Torah that I have issue with post crucifixion.

I found it very interesting that the community that preserved the Dead Sea Scrolls had much the same perspective as mine in this regard. They still offered sacrifice (at least 200 BC) but stated that it had minimal utility to God. They were only doing it because they recognized it as being part of a temporary covenant that was in place until the coming of the Messiahs of Aaron and David. (John the Baptizer and Jesus). I also found it interesting that they apparently utilized the Law as a litmus test for inclusion into their membership.

My understanding of this process is as follows.
An interested man would approach the community for religious instruction. He would be welcomed and allowed to partake of this instruction in an "outer court" that we later see referenced as the room of the unlearned. The Community referred to it as the Pit. The only thing taught in the Pit was the Torah.
After 2 years of studying the Law, one could petition for acceptance into the Community which allowed him to access the "inner court" and deeper instruction offered to the assembly as well as being able to eat of the common bread.
His testing was carried out in the inner court where he was subject to be questioned by any member of the assembly on his understanding of Torah. How he answered determined whether he was accepted into the "brotherhood" or thrown back to the "Pit" for another year.
I believe that the answers they were looking for were ones indicating that the initiate understood the "chiydah" presented by Torah as that understanding could only come by the Spirit. Thus, one without this deeper understanding of Torah was rejected from acceptance into their assembly and communal breaking of bread as he was unworthy to participate.

This gives new light and meaning to Davids cry to God to show him wondrous things out of Gods law, and that God has lifted him out of the pit and the miry clay, and that David understands more than the ancients.
 
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This is a thoughtful post, and asks some good questions. They deserve a careful response, and I will try to address that after the Sabbath' (I have a live teaching to do in a couple of hours, and a paltalk room that will be open momentarily; "Walking Torah with Shabbat Shalom Mesa." )

They have in fact been addressed in the teachings to which I posted links, and are at least peripherally related to the Scripture parsha today (and last night, Num. 13-15) -- what I tend to do is an "overview" during the Erev Shabbat service teaching, and a focus on some aspects in greater depth on the Sabbath Day.

As far as eating unclean animals, weeeyellll... I mean... God showed Peter all those animals... and Peter called them unclean... and God said "Do not call unclean that God has made clean"

No - and there is the problem. YHVH is talking about MEN and not animals. That part I see you understand, but not necessarily in the context of the whoring, put-away wife of the northern Kingdom (Jer. 3, Ezek 23).

"Gentile" is NOT [necessarily] the same Hebrew word as "goyim" ('nations', often 'pagans'). And indeed they were pagans, or FORMER pagans, having "come to a knowledge" of the Truth. And they were (in general, as 'Samaritans', or others that had been -- as promised -- "scattered") also of the ten lost tribes, to whom He said He had COME.

And therein lies the problem with "metaphor", too. Whether we're talking "clean" or "sacrifice" with respect to animals, the differences, the context, and the failure to make the connection with pagan idolatry allows people to miss the simple point.

"Adultery" and "idolatry" are about the MOST congruent concepts in Scripture, and yet that distinction is particularly problematic, especially since idolatry remains as much of a problem as it ever was. "Korbon" is NOT the same as "sacrifice," either, but the distinction is equally difficult to see when the assumption is made that it really doesn't matter anyway any more.

So - for now - a question to ask ourselves.

When "Jesus died on the cross" -- did ANYTHING about the BODIES of men change? Did they suddenly acquire the ability to digest enzymes with names like "putrescene" or "cadaverene"? Did their DNA make them immune to swine flu variants and mutations? Did the bodies of PIGS, or shellfish, change? Are they no longer simply designed to eat and begin the process of recycling DEAD stuff?

Is there still a lesson to be seen when it comes to the understanding that "unclean" is associated with "death"?

oh - yeah, this:



Am I to understand that you believe this? That every single pandemic in history has always come to humans via swine? If your answer is yes, how do you explain all the instances of pestilence and plague visited upon the Israelites in the wilderness


I don't claim to be a virologist. But my understanding is that a 'pandemic' is viral, as opposed to bacterial, or radiological, or chemical poison, or prions (like "mad cow" or BSE), and that it has to do with transmissibility as well. WWI Spanish flu, not Black Death. And not that Scripture promises "plagues" that were even worse, in fact NOT like, those you "knew in Egypt" if people "continue" in rebellion. Personally -- Your Mileage May Vary -- I read that as possibly something bio-engineered. And I do KNOW that many of the most virulent weaponized "bird flu" variants, for example, as based on DNA spliced from swine so as to improve their ability to be spread among humans.

"Plagues" are a 'designed-in' feature of His creation that involve consequences (reap and sow) of rebellion to His instruction. Some are viral, some are 'vermin' or "creeping things", some are social, some are clearly economic, and some are yet-to-be-designed by those who serve "another master".

PS> I have had an African Grey Parrot for over two decades at this point. A good friend is perhaps the foremost avian vet in the Colorado Front Range; concerning the issue of the 'species barrier' and infections from parrots, he gave me a lot of insight over time into the fact that there are [were?] only two variants of psitticine diseases which can infect humans. While they can be deadly to the bird, they are not a reason to 'fear' catching something from them. But I've read and interviewed folks over the years (Dr. Len Horowitz comes to mind) who have described bio-engineering and weaponry. The idea in general is to insert appropriate porcine DNA to improve transmissibility, and things like avian flu variants to improve 'lethality'.

And that article was well over two decades ago. I'm sure the technology is MUCH better now. The point was never to argue about one more thing that is peripheral. The idea is to help people avoid plagues. I contend that "it's not too hard for you" (Deut 30:11) -- it's about life.
 
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And therein lies the problem with "metaphor", too. Whether we're talking "clean" or "sacrifice" with respect to animals, the differences, the context, and the failure to make the connection with pagan idolatry allows people to miss the simple point.

So it would appear that our differences on this topic revolve around the idea of a metaphor. You believe that the man was the metaphor for the animal and I believe that the animal was a metaphor for the man.
As exhibit A in this presentation, I present the lamb as a metaphor for The Lamb. Which one was for a temporary picture and atonement? Which one could never take away sin? Which one was only a picture of the nature of the other? Once the metaphor is realized and understood, is there any need to continue killing the one to present the reality of the other?

Your metaphor can only be presented strictly within the context of the Mosaic Covenant while mine can be presented throughout the entirety of Scripture as a parable differentiating between Holy and unHoly. Under the Mosaic Covenant the prohibition was to be observed as part of the litmus test, will you obey. However, outside of the Mosaic Covenant, both prior and after, it didnt matter if was food because that was not a requirement for obedience. The requirement was to be a different kind of man than one who would not obey the commands unless there was food in the trough and then would ignore commands and return to the wallow
 
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