Do moral women exist?

[Scarecrow]

Sorry to get off topic...but...

Grace and mercy indeed...

I often hear people make comments that the Old Testament and New Testament are like oil and water, that the god of the Old Testament is a harsh and cruel god, while the god of the New Testament is a kind and forgiving god. I like to refer them to these passages:

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

2 Samuel 12:13 David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.

John 8:11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."

The maximum penalty for adultery is death, but just as with the judges that sit in our modern courts rarely is the maximum sentence applied in the judgment, and mercy is shown. God was merciful then, and He is merciful now.

 

[CecilW]

Hmmm ... there is a Chinese proverb saying that when the student is truly ready, the teacher will appear.

Might an appropriate version be that when a man is truly ready, in God's knowledge, a moral woman / wife will appear?

I know that my own quest is not to "obtain" or "woo and win" or "find" another wife, but to become a man whom God may safely entrust with the heart of His daughters. If / when He decides that this is so, I trust Him to bring us together. He might even tell one of his daughters to go do the Ruth thing, thus shocking us all. :lol:

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

And by demanding to marry a virgin, a man is saying that God's forgiveness is not good enough for him. That is pretty bold.

No it is more like saying even if God forgives someone it does not magically prevent them from having aids 100% of the time.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

And women could likewise say "Are there any men who are in keeping with God's word?" Last time I looked there were a whole lot more women than men in churches.

As for DTT's request for "virgins or widows" maybe he could think about the fact that a woman might not be a physical virgin but she may have been saved and may be pure in that fashion. There are many, many women who have made poor judgement calls in their youth who would be exceptional wives, mothers and friends. I have known people who have "saved themselves" for marriage, but imagine this

A young woman is raised in a non-christian home
She is taught about birth control and feminism
She has sexual contact with a boyfriend. They break up
She finds the Lord. She becomes a believer. She is Forgiven. She is white as snow. She is a "new creation" and therefore she is not spoiled regardless of her "non-virgin" state.
So who is a man to say that this woman isn't good enough for him. Or moral enough. Or anything. If she is good enough for our Lord, then she certainly is good enough for a Christian man.
Don't write off a woman because she has a past. We all have a past.

I will add another detail. The guy goes to Church, and he has broken up with 4 or 5 other girls he has dated after having had sex with them. So by the time she has sex with only one man, she had sex with a man who got a disease from girl number 3, welcome to the real world!

If polygyny was practiced in which men could only marry virgins and widows there would be a lot less diseases then if serial monogamy was allowed,

Have you ever contemplated how many lives would be saved from aids, etc. if we enforced the old testament laws about execution for certain sex crimes. Also less men would be found sleeping with their neighbor(s') wive(s) instead of their own wive(s), because they would not want to die.

Women would not have to worry about their husband visiting their neighbor's wife anymore, if he does anything she can just have him killed. So the old testament idea is very pro-woman!

 

[Isabella]

And by demanding to marry a virgin, a man is saying that God's forgiveness is not good enough for him. That is pretty bold.

No it is more like saying even if God forbids someone it does not prevent them from having aids.

:shock:

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

And by demanding to marry a virgin, a man is saying that God's forgiveness is not good enough for him. That is pretty bold.

No it is more like saying even if God forbids someone it does not prevent them from having aids.

:shock:

I meant to say forgives not forbids that was a typo

Look I could forgive someone and just not want to run the risk of getting a disease. Not only would I put myself at risk but also any children I would have and any other wives I would be married to.

Barack Hussein Obama wants people with AIDS to no longer be forbidden from immigrating to the U.S. I disagree with him for the same reason.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

At this point she made a statement that made me feel 10 feet tall..."You are the first person I have ever met that could answer all my questions, and not only that your answers made sense and now I understand."

She became my fourth wife almost a year ago... : )

I like your story.

 

[Isabella]

I meant to say forgives not forbids that was a typo

Look I could forgive someone and just not want to run the risk of getting a disease. Not only would I put myself at risk but also any children I would have and any other wives I would be married to.

Barack Hussein Obama wants people with AIDS to no longer be forbidden from immigrating to the U.S. I disagree with him for the same reason.

I think there are plenty of people with HIV already in the States. Protecting yourself from HIV is just the same as any other STD, you test and you protect, no one should go to bed with anyone without testing, I don't care if someone says they are a virgin or not.

Personally, I am a bit more worried about people not being tested for that TB strain that doesn't react to antibiotics or any more commuicable disease that I can get without ever getting up close to them. Frankly, someone sneezing in public is something I can't control, who I am intimate with is.

 

[withfresheyes]

Yes, we do exist and it is certainly not easy but the rewards are that God will provide for us the man He would have us to love, cherish submit and obey. Although we are in a constant state of change as we grow in the truthful revelations He and He alone gives. Yes, we do exist. I might add, we cannot place all mem in the sme categpry. There are true honest God fearing dedicated and committed men of God who listen to His voice. These are the men who see the beauty within. Yes, they also exist. We love you guys and I cheer you on!!! I believe a true woman of God will always want to please her man and basically, if he walks upright before the Lord, with willilng obdience seek his advice and lovingly with preplanned preparations, plan her day arouond what will make it easier for him. Bottom lilne, we are out here and we are waiting for authentic masuculinity to produce the fruits of God. Women were created to be the help meet, not the leader.

 

[Scarecrow]

Sexually transmitted diseases are something everyone should be concerned about. They are a part of the fallen world we live in. There is thorough testing available, and it is appropriate to have yourself and the other individual tested before committing to each other. If a woman had an STD and was unaware of it she would give it to her new husband who would then pass it along to his other wives. If he had an STD and was unaware of it he would pass it along to his new wife. Many STDs can go undetected for a long time before an individual is aware they are carrying it. It is not fair to the others involved, both parties should be tested to ensure that there is nothing to be concerned about from either of them.

With that said, I also yearn to be part of a society like that of the patriarchs of the early nation of Israel. It is that natural yearning that leads people who don't know better to join cults. I would have loved growing up in a simple highly structured God centered environment. In this type of society women are not unattended and are betrothed and eventually married while still virgins, as God ordained marriage to be. The heads of the families met periodically to discuss issues confronting the group (representative government that actually represented the people) as a whole and to fellowship. There is another post about living off the land, you can see from that how people have a natural inclination to commune with God and nature rather than to live in this concrete and plastic jungle that most of us are now in.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1844

In our modern reality we can yearn for better things, but we need to work with what God has given us to work with, if not we will overlook the blessings he brings to us. There are millions upon millions of women in this world (6.7 billion people and climbing) that have yet to actually meet a godly man that they think they can join with and raise their family. God gave them that desire, and when the right man comes along it does not take them long to realize it. More than one of my wives asked me to marry them after getting to know me well. I don't say that to brag, I have worked hard to become a man that women will see as a man they want to lead them, and I am still working on that believe me.

We live in a fallen world; we can either choose to look at the negative side of it and think there is little if anything we can do about it, or we can take what God has given us to work with and make the most of it. If you have something good and make it better you get a sense of satisfaction; if you take something bad and use it for good you get a sense of accomplishment. My prayer has often been "Lord let my faith be shown by my works, and let my works be fruitful that I may accomplish many things according to your will."

Cecil has the right attitude...what to do when life hands you lemons...

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1839

 

[sweetlissa]

I will add another detail. The guy goes to Church, and he has broken up with 4 or 5 other girls he has dated after having had sex with them. So by the time she has sex with only one man, she had sex with a man who got a disease from girl number 3, welcome to the real world!

If polygyny was practiced in which men could only marry virgins and widows there would be a lot less diseases then if serial monogamy was allowed,

Have you ever contemplated how many lives would be saved from aids, etc. if we enforced the old testament laws about execution for certain sex crimes. Also less men would be found sleeping with their neighbor(s') wive(s) instead of their own wive(s), because they would not want to die.

Women would not have to worry about their husband visiting their neighbor's wife anymore, if he does anything she can just have him killed. So the old testament idea is very pro-woman!

So, DTT
Does this mean that you are a virgin?

 

[sweetlissa]

As for widows, what makes widows any more free from disease than a single woman or single mother or divorcee. A woman can be called a widow and still sleep around and pick up diseases.

God didn't give us any guarantees. Yes you should be careful, but to demand only a virgin could be cutting off the helpmeet that God intends for you.

SweetLissa

 

[Isabella]

As for widows, what makes widows any more free from disease than a single woman or single mother or divorcee. A woman can be called a widow and still sleep around and pick up diseases.

Or her late husband could.

Bels

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

I will add another detail. The guy goes to Church, and he has broken up with 4 or 5 other girls he has dated after having had sex with them. So by the time she has sex with only one man, she had sex with a man who got a disease from girl number 3, welcome to the real world!

If polygyny was practiced in which men could only marry virgins and widows there would be a lot less diseases then if serial monogamy was allowed,

Have you ever contemplated how many lives would be saved from aids, etc. if we enforced the old testament laws about execution for certain sex crimes. Also less men would be found sleeping with their neighbor(s') wive(s) instead of their own wive(s), because they would not want to die.

Women would not have to worry about their husband visiting their neighbor's wife anymore, if he does anything she can just have him killed. So the old testament idea is very pro-woman!

So, DTT
Does this mean that you are a virgin?

I do not see how that is related to whether or not I am a virgin. Since I have never been married I choose to be a virgin.

To answer your question. I looked up a few definitions on dictionary.com Based on the following definition I am a virgin (As of Aug 22, 2010 I am a virgin. In the future when I get married this will change)

Virgin =: a person who has never had sexual intercourse.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Sorry to get off topic...but...

John 8:11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."

The maximum penalty for adultery is death, but just as with the judges that sit in our modern courts rarely is the maximum sentence applied in the judgment, and mercy is shown. God was merciful then, and He is merciful now.

John 7:52-53 (New International Version)

52They replied, "Are you from Galilee, too? Look into it, and you will find that a prophet[a] does not come out of Galilee."
((The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.))
53Then each went to his own home.

Footnotes:

1. John 7:52 Two early manuscripts the Prophet


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

"((The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.))"

If John 8:11 is in the Bible I might consider your point, but if it is not in the original text, it is not in the original text therefor.... I do not mean to be rude.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

I think there are plenty of people with HIV already in the States. Protecting yourself from HIV is just the same as any other STD, you test and you protect, no one should go to bed with anyone without testing, I don't care if someone says they are a virgin or not.
[/b]

I do not know what you mean by "protect"

Please consider watching the following video which explains how condoms do not protect against various diseases.

Safe Sex Is A Myth / Sex Education Video by rosemaryvivianne on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83ZL2a3IFB4


Also I would like to point out my prediction that people can get STD's from kissing mouth to mouth. People have been getting STDS in the mouth from oral sex. So if it can go from genital to mouth why not mouth to mouth by kissing. I do not go around kissing women (I am not married to) romantically why should I have to marry some women who has kissed men romantically?

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

You can not test for diseases which already exist but have not been discovered.

If a man married a virgin woman (whose parents do not have an STD) it is unlikely she will have a std even without testing, but there are so many stds if he goes for a non-virgin who tested STD free on 100% of what she has been tested she may still have a non-tested STD.

 

[Tlaloc]

STD's are transmitted via blood and sexual fluids (both of which the Old Testiment deems 'uncleen') not through saliva (which may be icky, but is not unclean per se). It should be a 'duh' that STDs can be contracted though ingesting either of those things. It doesn't in anyway help the case that kissing, even exchanging saliva, would spread such disease.

Isabella has it right, its a good idea to have paperwork upfront no matter what. Even a true virgin with parents with certain STD's could have up to a 20ish% chance (last I checked, based on using the least precautions while birthing and nursing) of having one.


As to the text of John 8, I should like to copy something more than the NIV footnotes for you

"It may however be necessary to observe, that a very perfect connection subsists between Joh_7:52 and Joh_8:12 - all the intermediate verses having been omitted by MSS. of the first antiquity and authority. In some MSS. it is found at the end of this Gospel; in others a vacant place is left in this chapter; and in others it is placed after the 21st chapter of Luke." (Clarke's commentary)

They do not have John 7:53-8:11 where it is placed, they do not necessarily lack it outright. He adds that the early church found this section controversial, and avoided reading it publicly to the churches by tagging the line as not to be read or leaving white space there in the early copies given to churches. If there was white space left for these verses or these verses appeared but only in a different place they are legitimate, and note that the NIV's 'earliest and most reliable MMS' are the copies the early church made and are the very copies produced by this controversy.

I'm surprised at you on this topic Discussing, normally you are one to dig deeper on a topic yourself rather than just copy and paste someone else short explanation. In this case you're not even representing the NIV translators right, the NIV translates thought the text was invalid they would have left it out, see http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV and look at the verse numbering. It goes from 20 to 22 and relegates v21 entirely too the footnotes (because there isn't really a case for V21 other than tradition).


You should probably relax about finding the right woman for a while Discussing, its stressing you too much, leave things in Gods hands and Gods time. Its annoying advice, but thats how it is.


Beyond that, Ecclesiastics is a very deep and complicated book of Scripture, its good to run some parallel translations, use some root tools, riffle through some commentaries, pray and meditate, before drawing conclusions on it. In this case the NIV adds the word 'upright' based on perceived context rather than the root actually occurring in the text. What we have is crudely "Look, I've gone one by one to find a person of reason\inventions and haven't found what I'm looking for, I've found only one man in a thousand and not one woman among all my searches, but I've found this: God made man upright and he has searched out many inventions. The wisest man seems to be lamenting the lack of peers for conversation more than talking about ethics here, and no matter how you read it is is a statement of his own experiences and not a reflection on men and woman on the whole.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

STD's are transmitted via blood and sexual fluids (both of which the Old Testiment deems 'uncleen') not through saliva (which may be icky, but is not unclean per se). It should be a 'duh' that STDs can be contracted though ingesting either of those things. It doesn't in anyway help the case that kissing, even exchanging saliva, would spread such disease.

So if a woman had an STD in her face/mouth/throat would you think you could not catch it by kissing her? If it can "live" in the throat/mouth/face then why could it not spread from one to another? I do not have to wait for science to confirm this one, but can use enough common sense to avoid kissing such a person.

 

[Isabella]

I do not know what you mean by "protect"

I mean to use any form necessary to avoid getting or transmitting a STD.

Please consider watching the following video which explains how condoms do not protect against various diseases.

Safe Sex Is A Myth / Sex Education Video by rosemaryvivianne on youtube

Who the heck is this woman when she is at home and why would I take her advice (unbiased and without agenda I am sure it is) over my own doctor or my own common sense? I don't think so.

Also I would like to point out my prediction that people can get STD's from kissing mouth to mouth. People have been getting STDS in the mouth from oral sex. So if it can go from genital to mouth why not mouth to mouth by kissing. I do not go around kissing women (I am not married to) romantically why should I have to marry some women who has kissed men romantically?

I am aware of the potential for transmitting some STDs orally (well at least in the case of Herpes) which is why I wouldn't take 'I am a virgin' for an answer, it is, of course your right to seek to marry whatever person you choose but if your only reason is to avoid STDs I think IMHO you are being a bit paranoid.