Profane Relationships

[yoderfamily]

Is a sexual relationship with an unmarried woman outside of marriage SIN? Let's look at the definition of profane.

pro·fane\prō-ˈfān, prə-\
: to treat (a holy place or object) with great disrespect
Full Definition
transitive verb
1 : to treat (something sacred) with abuse, irreverence, or contempt : desecrate
2 : to debase by a wrong, unworthy, or vulgar use

Lev 19:29 Do not prostitute H2490 thy daughter H1323, to cause her to be a whore H2181; lest the land H776 fall to whoredom H2181, and the land H776 become full H4390 of wickedness H2154.

H2490

Original: חלל

Transliteration: châlal

Phonetic: khaw-lal'

BDB Definition:

to profane, defile, pollute, desecrate, begin
(Niphal)
to profane oneself, defile oneself, pollute oneself
ritually
sexually
to be polluted, be defiled

Hebrews 12:16. 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.


I would like to hear thoughts on how or whether these verses speak on this subject. There are other profane relationships so feel free to discuss those to. I would list more verses but posting on my phone.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

I have never fully understood this. It isn't as plainly stated as I would have hoped, as in "Thou shalt not lie with a woman unless thou hast first married her". The Song of Solomon clearly holds the King to be awful 'handsy' with the Shulamite without much concern for propriety. I too, would like to understand the mind of Christ on this matter.

I will contribute this though: Genesis 34, concerning Dinah.

5 And Jacob heard that he had defiled Dinah his daughter: now his sons were with his cattle in the field: and Jacob held his peace until they were come.

31 And they said, Should he deal with our sister as with an harlot?

I have a difficult time rebuking a couple who haven't gotten married yet. What constitutes a marriage ceremony anyways? I see no need for a certificate or a pastor in my bible. Is it anything more than a party and a declaration?

 

[UntoldGlory]

It's the declaration and intent, I agree. So if they consider themselves married then so be it, but many unmarried couples who are becoming "one flesh" consider that less of a commitment than saying "I love you" or making their relationship "facebook official".

 

[ylop]

One application of Hebrews 12:16 is to a person's virginity, which is a sacred gift. To throw it away on a casual relationship rather than saving it for marriage is wasteful and profane.

 

[yoderfamily]

My understanding is that God created sex to reflect a relationship between us and Him. To me its a holy and sacred event. Casual sex without commitment seems profane to me whether its teenagers trying it out or a prostitute or a potential second wife. While it may not be a death sin I do believe it is a holiness issue.
If God viewed Esau profane for selling his birth right wouldn't a woman's sexual rights equal that? Something I have been wondering about.

Other profane relationships would be unequally yoked business partners. Would be other aspects I'm sure but its late and I need to be up in 5 hours.
Aaron

 

[ylop]

My understanding is that God created sex to reflect a relationship between us and Him. To me its a holy and sacred event. Casual sex without commitment seems profane to me whether its teenagers trying it out or a prostitute or a potential second wife. While it may not be a death sin I do believe it is a holiness issue.

Yes I agree.

Many people get hung up on whether such and such is right or wrong, how far can you go etc...

What about what is best? What is right? What is holy?

A man and a woman committed for life, joining together. That is holy.

(particularly if that joining contains the possibility of new life)

If God viewed Esau profane for selling his birth right wouldn't a woman's sexual rights equal that?

Same with a man. They both have a birth right, to be valued highly and not thrown away.

 

[yoderfamily]

Same with a man. They both have a birth right, to be valued highly and not thrown away.[/quote]

Ahh. The reason this subject stood out to me. But,, you know! ! So much easier to talk about the splinter in someone else's eye. It takes your mind of the uncomfortableness of the beam in your own. !!:?

 

[The Revolting Man]

I would have to argue again the premise, there is no sex with a woman outside of marriage unless she is already married. Sex with an unmarried woman is marrying her. You might say it is impossible to have sex with an unmarried woman. I believe that what we refer to as fornication in our translations of the Bible is really all of those sexual acts prohibited in the Old Testament that aren't adultery. But I think God has a strict "Do not handle the merchandise" policy. If you break it you bought it.

 

[FollowingHim2]

Sex with an unmarried woman is marrying her. You might say it is impossible to have sex with an unmarried woman.

"If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins

He still has to ask the father's permission, and the father has the right to refuse, so clearly they are not married yet. Marriage isn't just taking a woman and having sex with her, it's bringing her into his home, loving, caring, and providing for her for the rest of his life.

But I think God has a strict "Do not handle the merchandise" policy. If you break it you bought it.

Yip, but you might not get to take it home with you.

 

[Wesley]

Sex with an unmarried woman is marrying her. You might say it is impossible to have sex with an unmarried woman.

"If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins

He still has to ask the father's permission, and the father has the right to refuse, so clearly they are not married yet. Marriage isn't just taking a woman and having sex with her, it's bringing her into his home, loving, caring, and providing for her for the rest of his life.

The Bible seems, at least to me, to be pretty consistent on this issue...

Numbers 30:3-5 NIV
3 “When a young woman still living in her father’s household makes a vow to the Lord or obligates herself by a pledge 4 and her father hears about her vow or pledge but says nothing to her, then all her vows and every pledge by which she obligated herself will stand. 5 But if her father forbids her when he hears about it, none of her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand; the Lord will release her because her father has forbidden her.

This does not say that the vow never happened. It only says that the father nullified it.

This would seem to apply to marriage vows as well. Thus it seems to me that the same concept applies when a woman makes a marriage vow by allowing herself to be seduced. The father nullifying the marriage vow doesn't mean that the marriage never happened. It only means that the father nullified the vow after it was made.

====================

P.S. The reason all of the 'it seems to me's is because UntoldGlory said, in another thread, that I tend to be too forceful when sharing my beliefs. I hope that doesn't make my comment sound too clumsy. If it does then please bear with me as I try to strike a balance between too clumsy and too forceful.

Sorry man, but that some serious pot calling the kettle black there. Pretty much every response you type to someone is you telling them how they're wrong because they don't share your view/interpretation. I really do like some of your insights and ideas, but I find myself skimming many of your posts because they're just overly defensive or attacking.

 

[yoderfamily]

I guess I have a hard time comprehending how having sex constitutes marriage. All I can see is that it consummates marriage. If sex is marriage than any unmarried woman who has casual sex once becomes an adulterer after that. That would mean every prostitute is an adulterer and every man who has sex with her becomes an adulterer through participation. Which raises the sin to a death sin versus a holiness issue.

Is that what you are trying to say zephyr? Or am I taking something out of context.

Aaron

 

[Wesley]

I guess I have a hard time comprehending how having sex constitutes marriage. All I can see is that it consummates marriage. If sex is marriage than any unmarried woman who has casual sex once becomes an adulterer after that. That would mean every prostitute is an adulterer and every man who has sex with her becomes an adulterer through participation. Which raises the sin to a death sin versus a holiness issue.

Is that what you are trying to say zephyr? Or am I taking something out of context.

Aaron

Let's consider this passage of scripture...

Matthew 5:28 NIV
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Many people assume that the woman must be married but there are no words in the text, either English or Greek, to support that claim. We're supposed to read out of the Bible not into it. Adding the context that the woman must be married requires reading into it rather than out of it.

How could it be adultery if the woman is unmarried?

The word "lust" (Greek: ἐπιθυμέω epithymeō) seems to refer to sex rather than relationships. If the scriptural interpretation that Zephyr and I are using is correct then looking at an unmarried woman wanting a one-night-stand is adultery because the man is planning to marry and then divorce the woman and divorce is adultery. (Matthew 5:32)

 

[yoderfamily]

I think the word adultery is self explanatory. It doesn't change meaning from the old testament to the new testament.

I have come to believe that God records marriage as the moment a man takes over the headship of a woman. Ideally with the agreement of the woman and the blessing of her father. (I don't think you can LOVE a woman and force her to marry you and in this culture there will be women without fathers. ) Sex is just the consummation of the marriage.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that without a covenant their is no marriage. I think most marriages recorded in the bible leave the impression of a covenant having been established. Also isn't there a covenant with Christ before we are a bride? I do think this topic has been adequately addressed in other threads so I guess im rambling. Whoa

 

[Wesley]

I think the word adultery is self explanatory. It doesn't change meaning from the old testament to the new testament.

I quite agree that the word adultery doesn't change meanings between the Old Testament and the New but we seem to disagree on what the word means in the Old Testament.

 

[Wesley]

I have come to believe that God records marriage as the moment a man takes over the headship of a woman.

On this point we agree. In fact I believe that this the key to understanding why God told Abram to send Hagar away when Sarai demanded it. Abram had abdicated his headship of Hagar in Genesis 16:6 and in my opinion the sin of divorce happened at that point. (Of course Abram was forgiven for that sin because of the forgiveness of Christ.) Thus when Sarai demanded that Hagar be sent away it wasn't a matter of divorcing her at that point it was simply a matter of recognizing that the divorce had already happened days/weeks/months before that point.

(I don't think you can LOVE a woman and force her to marry you and in this culture there will be women without fathers. )

Personally, I believe that this is a false dilemma in that it assumes that either a woman has a choice in marriage or the man forces her. I see both as false statements. Adam did not force Eve to marry him but God did not give either one of them a choice. God simply presented Eve to Adam as his wife and expected her to submit to her new husband. Since God does not change (Hebrews 13:8) that seems (to me) to mean that He does not always give any of us a choice in whom we marry.

It is God that does this however, not men, so no force is to be used by humans regardless of other circumstances.

Sex is just the consummation of the marriage.

I cringe every time I see the words "Sex is just..." In my mind I hear Eve talking to Adam, saying "It's just a piece of fruit..." or "Apples are just..."

I guess what I'm trying to say is that without a covenant their is no marriage. I think most marriages recorded in the bible leave the impression of a covenant having been established. Also isn't there a covenant with Christ before we are a bride? I do think this topic has been adequately addressed in other threads so I guess im rambling. Whoa

Ramble on. That's what discussion sites are for. If you prefer a term other than rambling then use the word "brainstorming." The effective difference is small and, in this case, inconsequential.

I will ask you this however...

The Bible also uses the comparison between the marriage covenant and the covenant of Christ so that comparison is valid. But what happens on Judgment Day to a person who refuses the covenant of Christ?

 

[yoderfamily]

Simply this, they are rejected from the marriage Wesley.

I would still like to hear zephyrs thoughts on the question then I would like to hear some of the others thoughts on the original post.
Aaron

 

[UntoldGlory]

Exodus 22:16 “If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged to anyone and has sex with her, he must pay the customary bride price and marry her. 17 But if her father refuses to let him marry her, the man must still pay him an amount equal to the bride price of a virgin."


Now let me add some emphasis:

Must pay the bride price *AND* marry her. But if her father *REFUSES TO LET* him marry her...



So to me, this clearly separates the sex and the marriage.

 

[Wesley]

Exodus 22:16 “If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged to anyone and has sex with her, he must pay the customary bride price and marry her. 17 But if her father refuses to let him marry her, the man must still pay him an amount equal to the bride price of a virgin."


Now let me add some emphasis:

Must pay the bride price *AND* marry her. But if her father *REFUSES TO LET* him marry her...



So to me, this clearly separates the sex and the marriage.

I'm not as good with Hebrew as I am with Greek but I don't see the Hebrew word for "marry" in verse 17 so I don't see any support for that translation. What translation are you using?

In the Masoretic Text, verse 16 seems to say in effect that if he seduces and unpledged virgin then she is his wife and he is to pay her father as though she had been pledged to him. Then verse 17 seems to say that if the father won't go along with the deal the guy still owes the father money but doesn't get the girl.

I don't see anything there that suggests that the marriage happens after the father approves of it rather than before. The only Hebrew reference to marriage or wife is in verse 16 before the interaction with the father rather than in verse 17.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Sorry I missed a lot of this one guys. I'm on my phone so I won't get too verbose. But read thus verse carefully, if the father doesn't take a specific action to physically block the woman joining the man then the assumption of the verse is that they're married. The man has no say in if at that point. He is assumed to have married her.
Also what does it say about sex with a prostitute? Doesn't if say that you become one flesh with her? So yes, I do believe we risk serious sin when we sleep around.

 

[Wesley]

Also what does it say about sex with a prostitute? Doesn't if say that you become one flesh with her? So yes, I do believe we risk serious sin when we sleep around.

This is a point that I've made frequently in the past. Why would The Apostle Paul have used the description of marriage, "one flesh" (1 Corinthians 6:16), in relation to having sex with a prostitute if the man didn't become her latest husband when he has sex with her?

When we use the exact same words we are generally saying the exact same thing.